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Posts:
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From:
Islamabad
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(1 of 30)
Brazil imprisons American Airlines pilot for showing "disrespect"
Jan 15, 2004 5:02 AM
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FYI - Brazilians consider the "okay" gesture an "obscene" gesture.
Brazil detains U.S. pilot for mocking new security measures
EFE
2004 January 15
Sao Paulo, Jan 14 (EFE).- Brazilian Federal Police on Wednesday arrested an American Airlines pilot at Guarulhos International Airport for allegedly mocking immigration-monitoring measures put in place for U.S. citizens arriving in Brazil, and the local authorities denied other crewmembers entry into the country, officials said.
Dale Robin Hirsch, 52, was detained for showing contempt for local authorities after making an obscene gesture while being photographed and fingerprinted at the facility just east of Sao Paulo, police said.
The gesture led to the pilot's detention in a Federal Police office as authorities determined his status, while the rest of his crew, who arrived in Sao Paulo from Miami, sat in one of the airline's lounges awaiting return to the United States, federal agents told the Globonews agency.
Since Jan. 1, federal police at Brazil's border checkpoints have more closely scrutinized incoming U.S. travelers in a tit-for-tat move following commencement of photographing and fingerprinting of many arrivals in the United States.
Of the more than 100 countries worldwide whose citizens have been subjected to tighter security controls in the United States, Brazil is the only one that has decided to implement similar measures.
The country has long pegged visa-processing fees for U.S. citizens entering Brazil to the price its citizens pay for visas to enter the United States.
Recent measures Brazil has imposed on U.S. citizens have prompted heated debate inside the country, since tourist mecca Rio de Janeiro and the tourist sector, at large, believe they will scare off visitors to next month's Carnival.
Meanwhile, during a Monday meeting with U.S. President George W. Bush, at the Summit of the Americas in Monterrey, Mexico, Brazilian leader Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said his government would suspend the enhanced security measures if the United States reciprocates
Brazil is part of the triborder area where narco traffickers and terrorists freely move about and buy weapons. OBL did visit this area previously - without bothering with Brazilian customs. The government of France flew in, landed, then took off a military cargo plane in this same region without bothering to inform the Brazilian government, which remained clueless until they read about it in the newspapers. Brazilians illegal immigrants are a rising problem in the US, compounded by the fact that the Brazilian government refuses to repatriate them on arrested and ordered deported. there are currently over 900 Brazilians being held by INS for deportation. The Brazilian government is insisting that they be allowed to remain in the US and given citizenship. This group includes criminals. So the president of Brazil is asking that US law be suspended for Brazilians. Meanwhile, they imprison (not fine) a US citizen for showing disrespect. Perhaps the Brazilian president should take a drug test.
As to criminal activity in Brazil - it is a notorious haven for fleeing criminals of all nationalities. Brazil refuses to extradite any foreigner that has knocked up a Brazilian. Not marry - impregnate.
But don't show any "disrespect" (Do you suppose he refused to bribe the immigration guy?). The pilot can be imprisoned for a period of 6 months upwards. What is not being reported is how long he can be held without charges being filed - more than a year. In Brazil, prisoners are not provided meals, clothes, or health services. As for human rights abuses http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18322.htm
Disrespect? How about contempt?
DILLIGAF
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Jan 15, 2004 6:13 AM
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Do as the Romans do.
It could be contempt Lori, but having travelled around quite a bit, lets just not rule out stupid, brash, behavior.
Standard practice when I was in the Navy was to inform us of the customs of the country we were to visit. What we could do, what we could not do, was stressed. But most important was the notion that we represented the United States, and should do so with the utmost respect and courtesy.
I have met and worked with many Americans who feel they are the top dogs and can do anything they choose. A few hours in a foreign holding cell, before the Shore Patrol came and got your sorry butt, was a great learning experience for many.
A 52 year old pilot should know the ropes, and if he doesn't he is not serving the best interests of his Airline, let alone his country. A few hours in a Brazilian holding cell, will be a great attitude adjustment for him. In my opinion an Airline Pilot is an officer, and like the military, should be a "gentleman" as well. He should be an example to his flight crew, not a clown.
"Better to let them do it imperfectly than to do it perfectly yourself, for it is their country, their way, and your time is short". TE Lawrence
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517
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(3 of 30)
Lula wants to be Castro...
Jan 15, 2004 6:43 AM
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He ran for President like six times, under less and less radical sounding platforms, until he finally began to sound like a sane man. He is a NUT. I have friends in Brazil, who were visibly afraid the day he won.
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Posts:
367
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5/20/03
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(4 of 30)
Apparently a middle finger was involved
Jan 15, 2004 6:52 AM
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Whether intentional or not, that will not help your case with police officers in any country.
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-01-15-brazil-arrest_x.htm
I'm not sure if the bird is offensive in Brazil, but I'm guessing the officers assumed what it meant.
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Re: Brazil imprisons American Airlines pilot for showing "disrespect"
Jan 15, 2004 7:21 AM
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We've shut our doors to other countries, maybe it's time we include Brazil in this list?
Sounds like they need a wake up call.
Truth is as fleeting as the wind, but it is always there.
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Posts:
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From:
Seattle
Registered:
3/5/02
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(6 of 30)
Doesn't the US do the samething? n/t
Jan 15, 2004 7:25 AM
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"I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way. -- John Paul Jones"
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Posts:
10,471
From:
Islamabad
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12/12/02
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(7 of 30)
That gesture has no meaning in Brazil
Jan 15, 2004 8:43 AM
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They use the "female" version - reverse "victory" sign just under the eye. It is also referred to as the bird in the UK. The middle finger can be used freely with no recognition in SA - except from those who have spent time in the US.
My objection - the man was arrested and is still being held for what? A gesture? But the Brazilian government wants the US to release and grant citizenship to over 900 Brazilians who have broken enough US law to be deported. The man should have been turned around and not admitted. This is what the US does to Brazilians. Instead, he was jailed. Not held. Jailed. For showing "disrespect". A legal term no doubt. Meanwhile, the drug dealers paid their bribe and walked past customs.
The Brazilians have no cultural awareness of other countries. The middle finger means nothing to them. they are out to prove their manhood. Nothing more.
DILLIGAF
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1,080
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(8 of 30)
Jan 15, 2004 8:49 AM
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I wonder if that A/A pilot would have conducted himself the same way if he was in Sweden, England, Germany or any other anglo country ?, or would he have shown respect for their security ?
Can you imangine an Arab pilot giving someone in security the finger at JFK airport? He'll be half way to Levenworth before you can blink your eyes twice.
Wise man builds his house on rocks,foolish man builds his house on sand.
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Posts:
10,471
From:
Islamabad
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12/12/02
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(9 of 30)
I question why the situation was escalated
Jan 15, 2004 9:21 AM
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He's not being turned around but charged. They've singled out Americans for this treatment - and that is an issue in and of itself - and this move was an escalation by the Brazilians. It is being treated this way here. Americans being jailed for showing disrespect. Nothing more. How many Americans are currently being held in Brazil for disrespect? None that I'm aware of. Why now? Let me think. Could it be because the Brazilians are finding their criminals being frustrated by the index finger scan? Had it been simply reciprocity, the Brazilians would be scanning Americans' index fingers. Or given the fact that they have no database and don't even have the fingerprints of their own criminals in a database, maybe print the index fingers. But they escalated that. Instead of index fingers - well they bigger and badder than any Yanquis they'll show the world how big and bad they are - they are taking mug shots complete with placards, all fingers and roll the hand, having them wait for 9 hours before they can enter. Now they are arresting a pilot - and jailing him - for "disrespect"? Something tells me that someone's nephew was turned around at US Immigration because of a previous encounter with law enforcement and this is the revenge. Typically Brazilian.
Airline crew are handled differently at airports, passing through s separate line along with diplomatic personnel. There is no stress. Arresting such an individual for showing "disrespect" is a move on the part of the Brazilian government to shove it in the face of the USG. Stupid, brash behavior describes the action of those officials who targeted a member of the crew. They pulled aside the entire crew and refused to let them enter.
This is not about an individual but about corruption in the Brazilian government.
DILLIGAF
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Posts:
10,471
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(10 of 30)
How many Brazilian pilots are currently in jail in the US for showing disrepect?
Jan 15, 2004 9:24 AM
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n/t
DILLIGAF
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(11 of 30)
Jan 15, 2004 9:25 AM
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Rose to power on a largely Anti-American platform. These ant- American feeling are running un-checked in Brazil these days. It has been going this way since well before 9-11.
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Good post Lor and great discussions. Question:
Jan 15, 2004 9:33 AM
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It has been years since I worked in Latin America. I can recall one flight our of Quayaquil, Ecuador about 17 years ago. It seemed that every third man getting on the plane was carring a handgun in those little leather purses. There were actually two or three people got on with what appeared to be Uzi's. Do they still travel like this in South American?
"Of the more than 100 countries worldwide whose citizens have been subjected to tighter security controls in the United States, Brazil is the only one that has decided to implement similar measures."
Thank you for the intel.
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Posts:
10,471
From:
Islamabad
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(13 of 30)
I think it might very well be the criminal component of the current government
Jan 15, 2004 9:36 AM
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They have repeatedly demanded that Brazilians be exempt from the policy. Their citizens simply don't qualify. They Israelis are forced to go through it even though they are within one percentage point of qualifying for the Visa Waiver program and they are not complaining. Brazil is a cesspool of corruption, human rights violations, poverty and complete contempt for all other countries. They cannot control their own borders. But they want to be treated differently and are now showing that they will stoop to any means to assure their criminals have open access to the US.
This is the country that refuses to extradite criminals. Anyone remember Ronnie Biggs of the Great Train Robbery? http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9708/12/train.robbery/ Why should anyone be surprised when their government is now terrorizing airline crews and holding one hostage? It's their MO.
DILLIGAF
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Posts:
367
Registered:
5/20/03
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(14 of 30)
Re: That gesture has no meaning in Brazil
Jan 15, 2004 9:59 AM
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Well, I agree that the so-called punishment was harsh and a bit ridiculous...I suppose someone there recognized what the pilot was trying to uh, communicate, so to speak. We are living in a climate of tit-for-tat politics though.
So, LorSpi, seen any good movies lately? Return of the King, perhaps?
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Posts:
10,471
From:
Islamabad
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(15 of 30)
Still brandishing weapons
Jan 15, 2004 10:04 AM
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It's still pretty lax here but they make the effort here to screen passengers. Peru has a very strict gun law. Licenses are for each individual gun and bullets are accounted for individually. But rich folks still own large quantities of guns and any kind of guard is packing. It was worse in Mexico - armed guards in supermarkets, restaurants and at the churches during holidays. Here there is less presence but enough to make one feel uneasy about the casual way they sling their automatic weapons around.
The border area between Peru and Ecuador is still wide open, but I did not see any open display of weapons. Nor have I seen or heard of any weapons being displayed on domestic flights. Nice to know there's been some progress 
Something is definitely going on with Brazil. They are demanding that all of their citizens be excluded from any examination. They are a bad guy country. The government has refused to accept over 900 of their citizens who are being held for deportation. It is nearly impossible to be deported in the US unless there is a serious offense outstanding, so we are talking bad guys. Brazil is insisting that all be granted US citizenship.
BTW - France has demanded fingerprints for visas including Brazil since November of last year. So far no French citizens have been fingerprinted, mug shot or arrested and thrown into jail for disrespect. The Brazilian government is targeting American and not French citizens. This is not a neutral policy but an act of hostility against the US.
DILLIGAF
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